Curse

Savio · Apr 15, 2008, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

I might be an asshole for saying this but how the hell can that be argued against? Gold is ALREADY unlimited by killing monsters. If we're talking real-world economy, then the argument is already moot because of the simple concept of killing stuff.

Some real-world resources are also practically unlimited, instead constrained by the rate at which they can be gained. Similarly, in Guild Wars there are limits to how much gold and items players can earn. Ursan changes this by making that limit much higher than what should be possible for a certain group of players.

Quote:

People don't want new to moderate players to be "good". That's all it boils down to.

New players? Last I checked r10 Norn wasn't handed to you at the gate. A new player would only run Ursan because all the PUGs tell him "Ursan or GTFO."

The real argument is that of skill versus grind. With Ursan, grind-based players can now do the places that were formerly restricted to skill-based players. Should players who grind x amount of hours be allowed to beat any area in the game?

Abedeus · Apr 15, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

It's fun that there is overpowered skill? Dear God... Go back to mining for fishes. Any game company that supports game-breaking features is just a failure.

CagedinSanity · Apr 15, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

It's fun that there is overpowered skill? Dear God... Go back to mining for fishes. Any game company that supports game-breaking features is just a failure.

but kan u tell mee how 2 mine fer fish!/1?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The real argument is that of skill versus grind. With Ursan, grind-based players can now do the places that were formerly restricted to skill-based players. Should players who grind x amount of hours be allowed to beat any area in the game?

Why not? They're playing the game the way they want to.

isamu kurosawa · Apr 15, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsalan

Before eotn came out, the only time i cud join a DoA group was if I was an obby tank. That was annoying. And when you finally did join a group, if you so much as dared to question something you'd be out. Ive tried and mastered many different builds. From the necro and monk farming builds to runners all over place. All im saying is UB allows ppl to come together and have fun. I dont think most do it for titles. They just want to have fun

You mean you could only join a bad pug group as an obs tank?

Ursan has pretty much removed any chance of bad players improving by giving them an easy mode.

Thats one of the reasons people complain, although it gives everyone a chance to do high end content they do it without improving, there is no skill, they use no skills but ursan. There is no area in the game a well balanced team of players who know what they are doing cannot do.
Now with ursan around whenever one fo those players leaves the game they are not replaced. New players just go ursan to get a group.

CagedinSanity · Apr 15, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Unskilled is being confused with Idiocy.
You could say I'm not that skilled if you saw me play. But I'm not a moron.

I've seen ursanways get wiped because of bad pulls or just in general, morons.
It's not completely easy mode. It's easier, but it still requires *some* thought. Not a lot, but some.

Pyro maniac · Apr 15, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Read this thread again

Tyla · Apr 15, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Some people use UB for ever_little_thing in PvE, just as a speed-up. I fail to see the logic in that, as I fail to see the logic of rushing through your average console game.

You may only use it for farming, but yeah, that's YOU. There are a heck of alot more players, who use UB only as a rush.

And to your "These anti-UB'ers arguments are only because of their titles" argument, I myself just managed to finish Legendary Guardian today, with no PvE-only shit, and what can I say? Incredibly EASY. Skillless, but something to do.

Titles are meaningless these days, but something to do. Anyone who really does think titles are any sense of half-decent accomplishment are, in all reality, idiots who like swinging their e-peen around.

Jenn · Apr 15, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Titles are meaningless these days, but something to do. Anyone who really does think titles are any sense of half-decent accomplishment are, in all reality, idiots who like swinging their e-peen around.

Maybe to the average player on Guru, that is the case. I get the feeling that the people who bother to come here and "troll" are typically people who have spent more time thinking and achieving in game, thus, here, something like r5 KoaBD doesn't seem like a big deal. But really? I'd say it IS kind of a big deal, considering the average active poster on guru is not a good sample of the type of player you'd find in a random town in GW. I can't say all the titles take an extreme level of talent, but depending the route someone chooses to get to the end, it can take some skill. Dedication is often overlooked - it takes a lot to H/H the 130~ zones in all the campaigns/expansion. I also think that some people tend to oversimplify their accomplishments when looking back, when it comes to making "some kind of point."

Anyways - with Ursan. I'm tired of this argument because neither side seems to get it. I think (some) the Ursan haters are too extreme, but I think that the regular joe who uses it for everything is missing out on some fun challenges. I'm not a huge fan of the skill myself, but I'm glad it can open up doors for people in the game that previously couldn't do something. To those who get upset at the PuG-Meta... there's always active guilds out there combating the use of the skill in their own play, that take part in elite areas, or title hunting. You're not condemned to PuG-play only.

My thought about the success of Ursanway also has more to do with consumables than it does the the Blessing. To be perfectly honest, playing Ursan without consumables is very boring and not overall efficient, unless you've got 5 others, and coordinate button mashing. If you take out consumables, like celerity, or armor of salvation, Ursanway would, in MANY circumstances... fail. Feel free to refute me on this, but this is my personal observation from pugging.

Tyla · Apr 15, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Maybe to the average player on Guru, that is the case. I get the feeling that the people who bother to come here and "troll" are typically people who have spent more time thinking and achieving in game, thus, here, something like r5 KoaBD doesn't seem like a big deal. But really? I'd say it IS kind of a big deal, considering the average active poster on guru is not a good sample of the type of player you'd find in a random town in GW. I can't say all the titles take an extreme level of talent, but depending the route someone chooses to get to the end, it can take some skill. Dedication is often overlooked - it takes a lot to H/H the 130~ zones in all the campaigns/expansion. I also think that some people tend to oversimplify their accomplishments when looking back, when it comes to making "some kind of point."

Time dedication is alot different to skill dedication.

Time dedication relies on how much free time you have on your hands, and your lifestyle in general. Not really much of an accomplishment if you ask me.

Skill dedication relies on how skilled you are as a player. PvE doesn't require much skill at all to be honest, and I'm not counting PvE-only junk. All in all the AI should have been improved instead of overbuffing mobs which are still stupid and exploitable, simply stacking prots on someone being a makeshift tank messes up the enemy.

The only true thing that is a problem in PvE, is groups with ALOT of Monks squeezed together and huge groups being pulled.
It can be avoided quite easily all in all. Sometimes there are situations like Monks packed together which just needs a quick /Resign and go through it again, really.

Let's try and keep this millionth Ursan thread atleast clean in the least.

CagedinSanity · Apr 15, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Anyways - with Ursan. I'm tired of this argument because neither side seems to get it. I think (some) the Ursan haters are too extreme, but I think that the regular joe who uses it for everything is missing out on some fun challenges. I'm not a huge fan of the skill myself, but I'm glad it can open up doors for people in the game that previously couldn't do something. To those who get upset at the PuG-Meta... there's always active guilds out there combating the use of the skill in their own play, that take part in elite areas, or title hunting. You're not condemned to PuG-play only.

/Debateover.
Seriously, that sums it up for both sides.
Thank you for not being as biased.

SuperDave · Apr 15, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Should players who grind x amount of hours be allowed to beat any area in the game?

I vote no. It sucks that I prefer to beat the game in hard mode without Ursan Blessing, and use more skill to get the Dungeon reward/drops, and Johnny Ursanway can get his r8-10 ursanpug for the same reward quicker.

I feel about Ursan Blessing pretty much the same way I feel about cheating in single player games. I hate it. And using "cheat codes" and Ursan Blessing just feels so similar to me.

Bront · Apr 16, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Should players who grind x amount of hours be allowed to beat any area in the game?

I think the issue is not weather or not they should, but weather they should get a huge advantage over normal players.

Let's face it, there are many parts of GW that you can grind against and eventually beat. Fail at a mission long enough, you will likely learn enough to beat it, or just get lucky.

I've not had a chance to play most of the Elite areas, but from what I've heard, some of them (DoA in particular), were just as bad before as they are now, but instead of looking for Ursan, it was a set of 3-4 classes with specific builds only. In this case, Ursan opens up the area to other classes that may not have normally been able to access the area.

of course, a better solution would be to tweek the area to allow other classes to participate. Much like skill balances, maybe an area re-balance on occasion might not be a bad idea. Of course, people will be upset about that no matter what too ("Now it's to easy, anyone can do it!" "Now it's to hard, my PvX build doesn't work there anymore!").

I'm of no real strong opinion of Ursan at the moment. It's not a PvP skill, so it can be unbalanced without killing PvP, but PvE needs some balance too. I like the Avatar solution presented in another thread that make Raven and Volfen blessings more interesting, and balance them out a bit to where the Blessings are nice, and powerful, but not overbearing, and still require a good build.

Ultimately, other players playing Ursan aren't hurting my enjoyment of the game, so I don't see it as as big an issue as everyone seems to think it is.

Richardt · Apr 16, 2008, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Saying everyone who hates UB is an elitist is like saying every UB lover is a noob.

Most people hate UB because of two things:

1) It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpowered. As an example, an ele friend took Ursan out in HM into Ice Flow, overaggroed and pulled 4 groups of Grawl. Using Ursan he cleared all of them WITHOUT DYING. Now if you can't see a problem there, then something's wrong.

2) It completely removes the most enjoyable part of GW-putting together team builds.

Don't get me wrong-I used to be on the Ursan band wagon, but now I'm a member of the Ursan haters. Why? 'Cause there's no challenge! It's completely mindless. I am grateful that it did allow me to gain familiarity with various elite areas, but now I'm kind of wishing I had did these the normal way (which is what I'm doing on my Para).

I love my PvE skills, but in terms of power, UB just towers above the rest. Yes it's supposed to be an elite PvE skill, so I am expecting some power (look at Volfen and Raven), but UB just takes to far.

So until UB gets a nerf (which may/may not happen-and if it does I'm hoping it's still a viable skill, just brought more inline with the other skills) or redesign, I won't touch it-I won't even party with someone using it. And this is something that I tell everyone else-if you don't like it, don't use it. What does it matter to you that someone does use it? If they choose to miss out on the best part of GW (the builds) then that's their choice.

FoxBat · Apr 16, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

I don't even care that UB has no challenge. My problem is it's completely wiped out actual teams from pugging, and encroaches enough into guild play too. There are enough overpowered pve skills to throw around that you can manage DoA etc. without ob flesh or ursans. That should be the focus of the game, at least.

zwei2stein · Apr 16, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

My thought about the success of Ursanway also has more to do with consumables than it does the the Blessing. To be perfectly honest, playing Ursan without consumables is very boring and not overall efficient, unless you've got 5 others, and coordinate button mashing. If you take out consumables, like celerity, or armor of salvation, Ursanway would, in MANY circumstances... fail. Feel free to refute me on this, but this is my personal observation from pugging.

Well, yes. Celerity alone increases ursan damage by 50%, Other consumables double defensive value of Ursan.

Even without ursan they are problem. But Again, ursan even without consumables is problem too. Not super big problem, but more of something like SY or TNTF. Still unignorable, and still problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Time dedication is alot different to skill dedication.

Time dedication relies on how much free time you have on your hands, and your lifestyle in general. Not really much of an accomplishment if you ask me.

Skill dedication relies on how skilled you are as a player. PvE doesn't require much skill at all to be honest, and I'm not counting PvE-only junk. All in all the AI should have been improved instead of overbuffing mobs which are still stupid and exploitable, simply stacking prots on someone being a makeshift tank messes up the enemy.

The only true thing that is a problem in PvE, is groups with ALOT of Monks squeezed together and huge groups being pulled.
It can be avoided quite easily all in all. Sometimes there are situations like Monks packed together which just needs a quick /Resign and go through it again, really.

Let's try and keep this millionth Ursan thread atleast clean in the least.

You get not argue on that, Pve could use a LOT of AI tinkering, mob skillet tinkering and even stuff like randomized mob placement.

And Ursan and related stuff make this even worse. They are move in opposite direction of what should be done. Bandaid for bad PvE design decisions.

I'd rather have somewhat lame PvE with prospect of improving than very lame PvE with prospect of getting even worse.

Bluefeather · Apr 16, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

The only time i remember playing PUG is when I was just starting playing this game. Overall, I play alone. I don't care what other players do, and they don't care about what I do.

So, whether I use UB or not is not other people's business. It's mine alone. They call me noob because I use ursan? Who cares? As long as i don't bother you about how you play, let me play the way i want.

If non-UB-players can finish elite areas, so be it. If you want a more challenging game, then bring only 1 skill in your bar and if you beat an elite area, Screen shot it and brag about it here.

Just leave the UB users alone. Someday, they will realize how easy the game is and will try another way of playing the game. LOL now I am only using Savage Slash and Pure Strike and I was able to make it to THK using H/H, with missions and bonus and still on quest for Survivor 2. To some it is stupid, but to me it is fun. Besides, majority of players are now running ub skills (even some of those who hate UB are sometimes running UB skills

well, at I know at least one

)

odly · Apr 16, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

People have allways been retarded when making pug's so everyone playing the same thing is easier to form teams. As soon as someone posted a build for an elite area everyone allways tried to form the exact same team, without allowing any creativity.

I think Anet saw this and gave us the skill that suited this attitude.

Is it good ? Is it bad ? At least it gets things done, where in the past it was near impossible to find groups for elite area's with certain proffessions. And even the 'allowed' proffessions were required to use some specific build to get into pug's.

Puzur · Apr 16, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

As usual when it comes to the discussion about why Ursan is destroying the game the most important issue is missed. The main problem with Ursan is that it destroyes the entire concept of Guild wars. The idea behind it is to make builds that are really good together in a team (or solo if you like) and in the meanwhile you learn how the game mechanism works and improve both your character and your skills as player (and hopefully understands how fun the game can be), and as final challenge of your skills and builds you go to the elite areas.

When Ursan was introduced it took away the entire process of developing both your gameplay and your char, and made it possible to skip the entire path and go for the end at once (elite areas). If there was a way to go from pre-seering directly to the lich quickly arena-net would decide that it needed to be stopped, but when it comes to Ursan noone does anything. I dont know if it is a last attempt to boost sales for a bad product or if there is any other motives like killing GW1 in time for the release of GW2, but Ursan is killing the idea behind the game.

zwei2stein · Apr 16, 2008, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puzur

As usual when it comes to the discussion about why Ursan is destroying the game the most important issue is missed. The main problem with Ursan is that it destroyes the entire concept of Guild wars. The idea behind it is to make builds that are really good together in a team (or solo if you like) and in the meanwhile you learn how the game mechanism works and improve both your character and your skills as player (and hopefully understands how fun the game can be), and as final challenge of your skills and builds you go to the elite areas.

When Ursan was introduced it took away the entire process of developing both your gameplay and your char, and made it possible to skip the entire path and go for the end at once (elite areas). If there was a way to go from pre-seering directly to the lich quickly arena-net would decide that it needed to be stopped, but when it comes to Ursan noone does anything. I dont know if it is a last attempt to boost sales for a bad product or if there is any other motives like killing GW1 in time for the release of GW2, but Ursan is killing the idea behind the game.

It can be considered ill conceived attempt to introduce "operation shortbus" concept of MMOs where developers intentionally open older elite areas to more casual people when new content becomes available.

Basis of why that works in them is that new content caters to people which lost content to do because of nerfs. Another reason why this works is that casual people actually have use for that older equipment, and they should get it, and elite players have new stuff to get, so noone really has reason to QQ, as its win/win scenario.

In GWs there is no "replacement" content, and even if there was, gameplay degenerated in a way that it would have to be impossible to do with ursan/consumables, which means that it has to be very, very imba. Which means that once developers choose to open it they have to give casuals even more imba stuff that destroys other content even more.

Basically, power creep in its finest, lack of which was major selling point of GW. At least for me.

Malice Black · Apr 16, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

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